When Josh met Ben — new Law Society of Scotland CEO talks cultural change, adventure and ‘keyhole syndrome’

Q. Ben, you're a few weeks into your time as the new CEO of the Law Society of Scotland. What are your first impressions?

Short answer is, I'm loving it. And it's been a really lovely whirlwind, actually, I've been in the office virtually every day, meeting - lots and lots of meetings - meeting colleagues, meeting volunteers, committee members, office bearers. Learning about the people, learning about how the organisation ticks and just being made to feel really, really welcome.

It's been a very warm, positive experience. I was excited before I started, but it's, of course, only when you actually come into the organization and speak to the people that you start to understand how things work. And I've just met so many lovely, capable, committed people, both on the staff side and volunteers, all working really hard with passion to do their best and to help the organisation achieve its objectives and to make progress for the profession.

Q. The profession is quite at a crossroads. This year, there's a huge amount happening. We've got new regulatory powers have finally come in and passed, and there's a huge amount of modernization going on, technology, change of the guard. What have you found in your in tray so far? What the burning issues there have become priorities for you?

So clearly there are some big challenges, big change, but also big opportunities for the society [and] for the profession at large. You've mentioned regulatory reform. Clearly, we're at a pivotal point for that. It's a fantastic opportunity, actually, because we've got to the point on this journey of pretty much a decade of legislative reform, where now, now we know, in a sense, we know what the answer is.

Parliament has opined. We know the shape of what it is we're going to implement. We’ve still got to work through the detail of that and how it operates in practice. But we have an opportunity, working with the SLCC, working with the Lord President in his regulatory role, with the discipline tribunal, and the Faculty of Advocates, working together in the interests of the profession and the broader community that we serve to create a really effective, modern regulatory framework.

And that's fantastic, because a modern, progressive profession needs a good, positive, effective regulatory framework that is also seen to be effective, that doesn't create unnecessary barriers, but drives a culture of accountability and professionalism. And that's the opportunity.

You mentioned technology and AI, and we're…on the cusp of, more than on the cusp of, a technological revolution. And that will continue to, and I think, increasingly, impact the way in which the profession works. There's an operational side of that for us, in terms of the Law Society and how we leverage technology in the way in which we deliver for our members.

But there's also, more broadly, for the profession, what this means in terms of some of the challenges, but also opportunities in terms of the way in which the profession functions and the way in which we support and engage with our members on this journey.

So, there are key challenges, key things in the in-tray. I suppose my job is to, with those sorts of strategic agendas in mind, work with and contribute to the leadership of the organisation, to do my very best working with the team here to ensure that the law society as a whole, including all of the colleagues, all of the volunteers who are so committed to what they do, are working together to deliver to and make an impact.

Q. Perhaps we could rewind a bit and talk through your career, your career as a solicitor yourself. You've just come out of an interim CEO role. What journey have you taken to get to this point as the CEO of the Law Society? What kind of steps along the way have you experienced

Goodness. I actually grew up in northwest England, came to university in Scotland, fell in love with Scotland, and I've settled here. I wasn't sure quite what I wanted to do. I remember somebody at university telling me I should be an accountant, but I always had an idea that law was the thing I was going to go and do. And I trained and qualified at a law firm just around the corner from here actually, Shepherd +  Wedderburn, and worked a very happy 10 years…there.

I worked for the then chairman of the firm, Hugh Donald. He was an early, very positive influence on my career and a very interesting range of work, working in the litigation department, but increasingly regulation, particularly contentious regulation, and public law more broadly as well.

I went to London for a bit to further my career with the wonderful team at Kingsley Napley, working in professional regulation and the field of public law more broadly, there, working for a range of professional bodies, regulators, public bodies down there.

You can never control the timing of these things. I sometimes think people think there was maybe some master plan, but there wasn't. You work, you work hard, and you pursue things that interest you, and you try to make an impact, a contribution. And that, I guess, was what I did, and there was an opportunity to become the first general counsel of the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries, another professional body and a global professional body and regulator for actuaries.

And as well as being legal counsel, that involved running the regulatory function that was being developed at the time. And part of the brief was to go and build this regulatory framework, working with a different oversight body, the Financial Reporting Council, which was our oversight body, our equivalent of the SLCC, if you like. But we also had all these members all over the world and the challenge was how we were going to make a coherent framework and effective regulation really work for all of them. And I had a very happy next 13 years at that particular organisation including about 15 months as interim CEO.

I suppose my interests have always been and increasingly, a love of the law, love the profession, but particularly the area of strategic leadership and how organisations really tick. How do you work with people to get the best out of them? How do you really deliver in the complex environment of a body like a professional membership body which has different functions?

Q. What can people expect of you as a leader? There are lots of different styles of leadership that people might have, what have you found as worked for you? And what can members and staff here at the Law Society expect from you as a leader?

I think [people] will find, I hope they will find, that I'm very collaborative in my style, and actually, I think that's critical in an organisation of this complexity, with a professional body with such a complex and diverse range of functions and stakeholders. So I think that sort of collaborative leadership style is very, very important.

I'm a huge believer in the importance and power of positive culture, and that's one of the things we've been talking about already in my first few weeks. I am passionate about the idea that if you can get the culture working well, then actually everything else is much easier. There's a slightly trite expression, isn't there, that culture eats strategy for breakfast, but there's a point to that. You can have the best strategy in the world, the nicest action plan with super KPIs and all the rest of it and all of that stuff's important, but if the culture doesn't work, you're just going to struggle.

Conversely, if you get that supportive, empowering, engaging culture working, and you've got capable people embracing that culture, then everything is possible.

Q. Regulation is quite a specific style of work, which a lot of the profession and our readers will experience only from the other side as the regulators. What is the drive? What's your motivation for working in a regulatory body?

You know, regulation can get a bad press, and people generally, on an individual level, don't like to be regulated, because it creates a sort of burden. It's something that gets in the way. But actually, one of the things…our members tell us they most value about what we do is to uphold standards, and in doing so, of course, uphold the reputation of the profession. And that's so critical.

It's so critical for a profession of the prestige and history and heritage of the legal profession. It's the same in my previous body, actually, in so far as that, that was always the thing that members wanted us to make sure we did was to protect, to uphold standards and protect the reputation. That didn't stop them, of course, challenging us if they didn't like particular bits of regulation, and that's absolutely right.

And there's a power, in my view, a real power and potential to working and engage with your members in the way in which we regulate, and that because of our proximity to our members and our ability to listen to our members, whilst also being accountable as a regulator.

We have a a perfect opportunity to design regulation which works for the profession, which upholds standards, but actually is proportionate, is appropriately targeted, is risk-based. And of course, that's a that's a work in progress, that's the journey that we continue to work on, and we have an opportunity with this new legislation, to really lean into that.

Q. One of the quirks of the profession is that whilst all solicitors share in common that they are solicitors, many solicitors, day to day their jobs do not touch on other members of their profession. If someone's a family lawyer in the Outer Hebrides, they may never do any of the same work as a criminal lawyer in Edinburgh or a commercial lawyer through in Glasgow. How do you lead and regulate a profession which is so diverse?

I have a background in the legal profession but I'm acutely aware that my experience will be very different from someone who's, I don't know, practised as a sole practitioner in the area of criminal law. Equally, our in-house community, for example, is itself very diverse, because in-house lawyers work across all sectors, doing all sorts of interesting and different roles.

We're all members of the legal profession, and we all subscribe to some core principles, not least, for example, the rule of law and the importance of an effective justice system, and the principles that underpin the way in which we advise our clients, whether you are working in a small private practice, office, a multinational corporate, or an in-house client, or an academic context, too.

I think listening to our membership is key, but also then embracing some of those key principles that bring us together.

Q. We've talked about diversity of practice, but also diversity of background and how people come into the profession there. Would you see the Law Society's place in improving diversity, and where do you think the profession is at as a diverse or not a diverse profession?

This is an area that I personally feel passionately about, and passionate about the idea that this is a profession that has, over the, you know, in the past, been seen to be an exclusive one, but should be one that is inclusive, that engages with the broad sector of the community in which we operate and is open to all, and in which everybody can feel that they have a place and can feel that they belong.

And that's absolutely critical, because if we don't do that, apart from the fact that that's the right thing to do, actually, we [don’t] stay relevant as a profession, and to stay in touch with the society that we serve, we have to do that, and it's so fundamental.

From a recruitment point of view, if you are blinkered in your recruitment strategy as a profession as a whole, either consciously or subconsciously, you also miss out on a huge range of talent, don't you? So we have massive vested interest too, in equality and diversity and inclusion, apart from it being just, just the right, right thing to do. At the Law Society, we've got a whole range of initiatives, and this will continue to be a key area of focus for us.

I had the pleasure in my first few days of joining a reception for some of our Lawscot Foundation beneficiaries supporting young lawyers, young potential lawyers, going off to universities supported by the Law Society. We do a lot of work in schools and universities to encourage awareness of the profession and opportunity for all to join.

This is a journey, to use a perhaps a somewhat trite expression, but it's one that we're hugely committed to. I think we've made massive strides. And if you look at the gender balance for the profession overall, far, far more women are coming into the profession these days, but you're also right that that balance is not yet seen fully at the top, most senior roles, so that that's something we need to continue to work on and understand why that is, and what the barriers to that sort of progression are.

I've for a long time taught part-time at the University in Edinburgh, and just very anecdotally, over the years, I've seen that the gender split changing to the extent that it's now quite common…to have all female classes of students, and that didn't used to be the case. So there's been a real rebalancing, certainly at the entry point to the profession.

I could talk for quite a long time on this subject, because it is something that is so important but you're right, I think to call out socio-economic inclusion and tackling that needs to be a key priority for us over the coming period. Because if you can unlock that, I think there's quite a bit of evidence that suggests that actually you start to break down some of the other barriers for entry too for a whole range of people across society.

Q. What are your impressions on the rule of law, where society treats the legal profession, and what do you think the legal profession can do to uphold those values?

I was reminded of why I loved public and constitutional law, and that was the subject I continued to teach over the years at the law school. And when I first came across the notion of the rule of law, I guess it was quite a sort of theoretical concept. It was almost sort of obvious. So, you know, the idea that the rule of  law applies to everybody, and everybody is subject to the law, including the government, and there are lots of checks and balances as to how we hold the government to account and that, and that's just how our constitution works.

That, I suppose, was almost a given, and then suddenly it doesn't feel such a given. And maybe I was complacent as a young law student in thinking that to start with. It isn't a given in many parts of the world. But here it felt as if it was, and in the West, it felt as if it was, and then suddenly it feels more vulnerable, doesn't it, as you allude to and I think it's absolutely critically important that this is core to the just legal system that we stand for.

It's core to the constitution. It's core to our social norms, our society and it's critical that we as a legal profession stand alongside our colleagues and fellow legal professions around the world in upholding these principles, because they go to our very notion of justice, frankly. And now you can't overstate the importance of this, and we have to, appropriately and in the right context, be prepared to speak up to defend those principles.

Q. How much of a priority for you in the organization is legal aid reform, and what do you see as maybe a route to improving the legal aid situation in Scotland?

It's an absolute core priority. You can have a justice system that is fine in principle, but if nobody has access to it because they can't afford it, or they don't have access to lawyers who can give them professional advice, that's not a working justice system.

This is a key priority. It has been over the last number of years. I think perhaps there might have been a perception that this was about the remuneration of solicitors. And of course, solicitors should be properly paid for what they do. But actually this is much broader, as you say, if you don't fund sufficiently the legal aid system, you end up with not enough lawyers able to provide legal aid work, and then you've got a societal crisis.

We’ve been having some really constructive conversations and dialogue with the Scottish Government and other stakeholders. I know that this is being taken seriously. I'm confident that that is the case. I know that this is something that the Scottish Government is working on. There is legislation around legal aid in the offing as well. I'm cautiously optimistic that we can make some progress, but we're a long way from fixing it at this point, and it's critical.

Q. What was decision to get into teaching, imparting your knowledge to others? And how much do you enjoy doing that?

I love it. It's the first year this year, actually, that I've not been able to do it, but I'm hoping to return to it. That's the new job and new diary, but I've taught for pretty much most of the last 20 years at the University of Edinburgh Law School. It would be nice to say there was a grand plan. Back in the day, I was asked by the then constitutional law professor if I could help and take a take a couple of classes, and of course, that sounded like a nice opportunity. If in doubt say yes to these sorts of things!

I think I wasn't much older than my students and I remember sort of dressing up, putting a jacket on or something, to try and create some sort of sense that I had some sort of authority at the time. And over the years, I've noticed that I've increasingly dressed down as the gap in our respective ages has widened, so I would now turn up in jeans and a t-shirt to try to make sure that there's no barrier between us and we can have a really open, good debate and conversation!

It stimulates me to engage with, enthusiastic young law students, full of ideas- my challenge is to  encourage them to open up and explore their thinking, and that's really my role, particularly on the topic of constitutional law, which so lends itself to debate and argument and then just to try to encourage them to think as broadly as possible about the world through a constitutional law lens.

Constitutional law is all around you. Don't think this is just about the textbooks. Yes, you need to have an understanding of the principles. But actually, watch the news tonight. There is something going on, whether it's President Trump or the Human Rights Act , that is relevant to the relationship between us as citizens and the state, and that's what constitutional law is all about.

This is not a dry, academic subject. This is a living subject that is very much in the balance around the world.

Q. A question in two parts, talking about younger or solicitors at the beginning of the journey, what advice would you have for someone who is, firstly, about to finish being a trainee and become a qualified solicitor? And then secondly, perhaps for people are still at school, considering maybe going into the law, or perhaps someone who's in a different career and is thinking maybe they'll go into law, what advice might you have for someone who's not yet in the career?

I hesitate before giving too much advice…because everybody's journey is different, right? And I suppose what I'd want to say to both is back to the theme around diversity, that the law is for everybody, and I think, to the new solicitor, I would say there's almost an element of sort of go for it and enjoy yourself. Particularly at that stage in your career.

Remember the value of relationships and communication, don't be lured into thinking that the law is just about knowing all the cases or knowing the legislation- that becomes almost a given; the very best lawyers, in my experience, are the ones who really engage with people effectively and really understand what their clients need.

[To aspiring solicitors], I would try, I think, to really encourage by dispelling some of the perceived barriers and perceptions that there may be, first and foremost, to say that the law is a really broad church. It's, as I sometimes say, it's everything from tax to murder and there is a niche in the law for everybody.

If this is something that interests you, then go for it, and building on that, trying to encourage people not to be intimidated or put off by what they may have heard or perceived. And I've heard people say recently saying they didn't do law because somebody told them it was too hard. Well, that's a nice challenge. Go for it. If you're interested in this, you can go make it go make it happen and find your place in the legal universe, because it is really very broad.

This might be the something I would have said to my young self too: try not to be put off or intimidated by what a philosophy professor I knew once called ‘keyhole syndrome’, where you stare, the idea is you're looking through the keyhole into this room full of wise people -I think it was always wise men in those days - and you don't think you're part of that, because they're all terribly wise, and they have all the wisdom.

But that's not the legal profession of today. It's one where there is a place for everybody, and we want the ideas of as broad a group of people as we can possibly get, to keep challenging ourselves.

Q. We’ve talked predominantly about the law and about work, and I imagine the last few weeks have been dominated very much by a new job, but outside of work who are you away from the office?

I have a lovely family, I have a wife and two teenage boys who keep me very much on my toes, 16 and 14. So they're obviously growing up, and they're doing exams and things at school and [on] their own journey.

I love the outdoors. I [love] fresh air and active rest is my is my kind of go to, particularly by the sea, and we are fortunate enough to live by the sea. I love sailing and all things water sports. I do have some involvement with scouting. My boys have been through scouting, and that's something I've been involved with, both as a child but also as a leader more recently. And I'm trying to combine the two sort of interests at the moment to lead an initiative to take some young people on a yachting adventure, because that is something- maybe about a bit like the legal profession in the past- yachting can be seen to be very exclusive and inaccessible, and we're trying to make it accessible and give some young people an adventure, to try something they haven’t done before.